Forum:Proposal for Standardization of Song Pages
Basically I feel there is a need for standardization of Song Pages (the ones in the “Vocaloid Original Song” category though more may apply that I haven’t noticed), namely in the “Derivative Works” section as there are many things that make it look rather “messy”. Some of the songs may or may not be relevant to put in that section. Because there are no rules on what one may or may not add (like for example no restrictions on view counts), this section can be easily taken advantage of and filled with videos that may not be entirely relevant. Also with no restrictions a lot of bias can be added, for example someone could link a utattemita by a utaite that doesn’t have many views (I understand that unpopular artists can be much better than popular ones) but rules and regulations need to be more substantial ie.more views = more popular = more people like it. I’ll hate to put it like this, but the songs, video, cover, etc. should have status to back up why it should be listed in the first place. I also noticed some inconsistencies in terms of sorting as well. If this has a positive feedback then I shall post a list of the "standardizations" I had in mind. I apologize if there is some sort of guideline already available as I can't seem to find any. Hopefully I didn’t sound aggressive since that was not my intention to do so. Sen (talk) 05:59, September 17, 2012 (UTC) **Edit So I found the the "Song Article Guideline" page but since it doesn't list any particular restrictions so I'm still going with what I said above Sen (talk) 06:21, September 17, 2012 (UTC) ---- I guess in a way, this should be settled. We're talking about derivatives here, and I disagree with the views (then again, I honestly think there isn't any measurement I could think of at the moment lol). Let's put it this way. For the song "It's my Roadroller" I put the derivative "Daughter of Evil's Roadroller". It's really popular on YouTube, around 500,000+? maybe? But on Nico Nico Douga it's only 10,000 views. In a way, I think it's a funny and good derivative to share. But "good" and "nice" are relative terms, which is why saying "good" or, well, any other personal opinions to a derivative or a background isn't recommended / it shouldn't be there (note to self, update the article with this statement) I understand what you're trying to say, and there needs to be a standard of measurement for this, but I don't think views is the right thing. I've always used likes / dislikes for YouTube and the mylist>comment (not all of them, but still) derivatives. Unknown.System (talk) 08:06, September 17, 2012 (UTC) ---- Personally I think number of views is probably the one of few things that can actually be measured in the first place. I agree that, like you said,"'good' and 'nice' are relative terms" and should not be used to decide whether a specific derivative should be added or not (if I'm understanding this paragraph correctly?..). Well the thing with likes/dislikes is that they are kind of dependent on the views, I don't think its possible to find a video that has more total likes/dislikes than the total views. Also with likes/dislikes what can be considered the appropriate amount? A specific ratio? Likes/dislikes depend on how many people see it and will actually rate it, so lets compare it to a survey. Before determining what is "popular" or not by "liking it" or "disliking" you need to determine how many people are taking the survey and what type of people are taking survey. For example you take a survey from 10 people that live near each other, say because cultural reasons they all say "dislike". Now lets expand the area of where the surveys are taken and increase the amount of people surveyed to 1000. Now, because there are more diverse opinions that say don't all follow the same culture and ideals, the results become 840 likes and 160 dislikes. So if we think of it in YouTube terms, the more views - the more opinions that will ultimately determine the "like" or "dislike". Sorry if I explained this all a bit badly since this all has to do with Statistics that I don't know very in-depth into. To put it simply if likes/dislikes were to be used as a standard of measurement what would be the "magic ratio" that everyone will have to follow by and not just that but how many people must have "liked" or "disliked" the video for the results to be considered feasible? Overall the likes/dislikes can be rather subjective as they can be determined on the amount of audience as well as being hard to pinpoint a certain standard which is why I considered to use the measurement of views since it is the easiest to determine. Of course a combination of likes/dislikes and number of views can be used as a standard of measurement but like I said before a standard of likes/dislikes may be hard to determine. Also since NND and YouTube are the main sources of "popularity" information, both will have to be considered in determining what the standard may turn out to be, so what may be popular on one but not on the other should probably still be allowed (kind of like what you kind of said before). With views, I don't think a certain number has to be dictated to say what goes or not, just seeing what has the most views for xxx song should just be sufficient. Also could you explain what "mylist>comment" means? I don't quite understand o.o;; Sen (talk) 00:29, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- Mylist = favorites in NND, Comments = comments in NND. Most videos / songs (popular ones anyway, depends.) have more comments in NND. When a video has more favs than comments, it's considered good, no? (I've always assumed the video is so awesome people can't even comment and just fave it XD). So it's basically like that. I see your point on likes/dislikes, but let's put it in another way. Depending on the songs' views, the deriavtive views' could vary as well (in some exceptions, some derivatives have more views than the original's.). For example, in the song Meltdown, let's say, a certain utaite cover has over 1 million views, with the other covers being over 500,000 views-ish. If we apply a general average then it won't work because the derivative in another, less viewable (viewable..) song like "Don't Mylist Me" would be different and won't reach that much. There should be a range, per song and per derivative. There's no limit or minimum on adding a song page, and if there were, the "Vocaloid Original Song/English" category won't exist this today. Unknown.System (talk) 01:04, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- (Sorry I started putting in line breaks since it was getting hard to see who was saying what >.<) Oh when you wrote "mylist>comment" I thought there was some special meaning behind it XD I didn't think I could take it literally. And comments are be counted (and listed somewhere) on NND? I didn't know O.O. "For example, in the song Meltdown, let's say, a certain utaite cover has over 1 million views, with the other covers being over 500,000 views-ish. If we apply a general average then it won't work...." I think I should have posted my list of "standardizations" I had in mind from the beginning since I think we're misunderstanding things from both sides XD. My list wasn't a bunch of "numbers" that I felt should be acceptable for a certain derivative to allowed. I know that Vocaloid has a very diverse fandom! So what I had figured that might be some standardizations in the “Derivative Works” section is (all of these are song specific): *1-2 most popular PVs *1-2 most popular utattemita *1-2 most popular chorus(es) *Notable arrangements **What may be considered arrangements might need to be defined; such as a utattemita arrange,a instrumental arrange, etc.. I find the most inconsistencies with this as sometimes a new section is made to list them while some are not. *Notable parodies *Notable other Vocaloid covers *Related Song(s) **Though if it has quite a few it’ll probably be need a series page anyway not just a song page as listing them all could be a bit space taking What is considered “notable” may have to be defined as what makes a song notable? The views? etc. How many of each notable derivative should be allowed might also have to be considered or maybe to keep it as a open amount. Notable remixes can probably be added too. I’m not sure if this wiki allows Odotte Mita at all but there are quite famous ones for some of the Vocaloid original songs, or course only a link to the creator of the dance should probably be listed to avoid redundancy. Also should CD exclusive songs/covers/etc. be linked since its kind of like illegal distribution (though I understand that “everyone does it anyway”)? Also a bit off topic but I didn't really want to make another topic for this since they're kind of related but for the Song Box template as well as the Song Derivative template, I noticed that some of the colors chosen were rather eye-straining (Kagerou Days would be a really good example of this). So maybe something warning against that might be helpful since the wiki is here to inform people not blind people (XD). Those templates were also sometimes inconsistent and didn’t always match the palette of the song, so maybe a maximum of 2 pairs of colors (one for the Song Box template and the Song derivative that actually match the palette of the song picture example given) should be limited to a song page? Personally I wouldn’t mind writing something like a guide for this. I’ll probably have to explain some color theory at this rate, but of course something simple enough for everyone to understand :) Sen (talk) 01:54, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- (Fine, I'll make some lines myself, so.. XD) Yeah, it's written on the top right thing. Mylist, comment, マイリスト、コメント. Oh, it'll work just fine, then! The "two arrangements" "two PVs" and such. In some cases I think 3 should work, but we'll talk about numbers later. CDs? Not really, in my case I've never tried to link songs from CDs and I don't think this wiki should give out links there either... Even though, yeah, "everyone does that anyway". I put the colors as "optional" there, since the main color of this wiki is more or less... Greenish blue. I guess that needs to be monitored. In fact everything in the song page needs to be monitored, the derivative, the colors... ^_^ Unknown.System (talk) 02:46, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- Alright let's get this show on the road >:D I don't mind helping if you need any since I've written some guideline things for the Utaite Wiki as well. Well in some of the song pages I noticed some derivatives being CD exclusive songs.... Personally I think this wiki needs a more obvious guideline/rule thing that outlines what is or isn't allowed on the wiki since I really can't seem to find any. Is it alright if I get started on the color guide I wanted to make then? Of course I'll run it by you first and see how things turn out. Yes I understand monitoring can be hard especially since the Vocaloid Wiki is so much more bigger than the Utaite Wiki which I even have problems with. Sometimes I wish there was a option between administrators and regulars users so things may go much smoother *sigh*. Sen (talk) 03:29, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- Hah, it'd help really much since we're currently organizing the to do list and such XD I think I saw one on the Meltdown page, but I'm not so sure. It depends on the guideline you're talking about, if there are policies, the basic ones are there (if we're talking about images' policy and such) in a matter of pages, not yet. The utaite wiki's really organized and... Proper (not sure what the word is, but it's really organized gah). What do you mean an option between admins and regular users? Where are you going to start the color guide again? Are you going to make a page or something? Unknown.System (talk) 03:55, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- I see... Thank you >.< When I mean option between admins and regular users I thought it would be nice if somehow there was like a "manager" option which pretty much would be a user with the delete/undelete option (which are restricted to certain pages), chat moderator and rollback options so that admins don't always have to be asked for everything (I understand that chat moderator and rollback options can be given to regular users but I personally don't think it does too much). Oh I'm going to start the color guide in Google Documents first then post everything after everything is approved and such. I guess I'll post a link here (or on your talk page) after I finish :) Sen (talk) 04:08, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- You mean this? Oh, okay then. I usually use this as a reference whenever I want to color the song box. I'll be waiting then. ^.^Unknown.System (talk) 04:21, September 18, 2012 (UTC) ---- Not quite >.<;; nevermind about it, it was me just mumbling.... Okay so I finished the guide which took and turned out to be longer than expected....I think I rambled on too much. I kinda of typed it out in half code and half not since I felt for some parts it was better to see it how I intended it to. Ah I also apologize for some of the informal language I used in the guide since I felt it was better to write it in way that one can more easily pay attention. There's probably going to be much more formatting done to it when I post it on the wiki. I also hope that it would be okay to upload the pictures I used in the guide on to the wiki as well. Lastly would be fine if I signed the end of it so that people may message me for further questions or something? or maybe that is unneeded due to the chat option available on the wiki.... Here's the link to the document *dies* Hopefully there's no glaring errors or anything Sen (talk) 04:22, September 19, 2012 (UTC) ---- Oh well okay then XP Whoa, that guide's really useful (I've always used this as a reference, but I think that CSS Palette generator's gonna be a real help for everyone). This guide makes me rethink my edits I've done so far on song boxes or colors or any CSS layouts I've done. It's looking good, and if you want to add "ask ___ for any assistance on coloring" you can do it, but commenting's handy too. Either way, so long as the color problem is solved... Where are you planning to publish it again? It's fine with uploading the images by the way, it helps people. Unknown.System (talk) 05:47, September 19, 2012 (UTC) ---- About the derivatives, I think we should consider the pageviews from the original source (the reprints are a bit debatable). The incomplete PVs must be out of the derivatives. However I'm a bit reluctant to limit that much the derivatives... in some case there are really good derivatives that would be forgotten in the dark if weren't by the wikia (The search system of NND and YT really sucks in that sense). In that sense, I think we need to discuss that part carefully. Adept-eX (talk) 07:19, September 19, 2012 (UTC) ---- @Unknown.System Thank you very much! I'm planning to publish it on the wiki? I mean where else would I post it? o.o @Adept-eX Yes of course, there are a lot of things that have to be considered I was thinking something on terms of a leverage system (I think that's not quite the right word...) Basically videos that have more higher views on it's original source can have more derivatives on it? Though views can vary from video to video so it might be hard to develop a "rule" for that.... Sen (talk) 20:11, September 19, 2012 (UTC) **Edit: I finished the guide!. What category does it go in? ----